Curse

ChaoticCoyote · Feb 04, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Whenever ANet makes changes that negatively affect PvE, the PvP crowd snidely says "Learn to adapt. PvE is already easy. The skills you use in PvE don't matter."

Of course, the PvP people look at PvE through the eyes of human-on-human competition. In PvP, the game is about mini-maxing skills, about fine-tuning to achieve a specific *game* goal.

You can't validly apply that philosophy to PvE.

In PvE, the experience is the goal. With the exception of farming, PvE is not about mini-maxing, it's about playing a character and experiencing a universe.

So why are skill changes a problem in PvE? Because it can ruin a character in terms of role-playing.

An example of this is Beast Mastery. My ranger does not take a pet for the tactical advantage -- she has played her 1200 hours with a pet because doing so is part of her character. A nerf that makes a pet unviable in PvE would ruin the fun I have playing my character.

Don't get the idea that my characters are one-trick ponies who rely on one skill bar. For example, my ranger runs more than two dozen very different builds, depending on the environment.

For me, defining a character isn't about picking eight skills and never changing them -- when I create a character, it is with a specific philosophy and personality.

My necromancer never runs minions. She is a witch, a spellcaster with a focus on the Curses line. She may have a dozen different builds, but they are all coherent within the concept of "witch-mage". Any change to the game that would prevent me from using curses effectively would wreck the character -- not because I don't have "options" in changing to another skill line, but because another skill line doesn't fit the character.

Fortunately, ANet has yet to make pets or curses unusable; but for other classes...

I stopped playing my Ritualist a while back, after skill changes rendered my favorite builds unenjoyable in PvE. I had a specific mental image of who the character was and what her motivations were -- I can't play a PvE toon unless it has some sort of identity, and the skill changes destroyed the identity of my character. Yes, I could use another skill line, but that would be an entirely different character.

If role-playing is unimportant to GW, then why have PvE at all?

Blame the Monks · Feb 04, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time.

Ashleigh McMahon · Feb 04, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

The problem I find is that PvP players complain about a skill and then that skill gets nerfed. Then PvE players complain that the skill in question has been nerfed and doesn't fit a build..and visa versa.

I guess it's kind of luck. You have to adapt to the changes. It's a war between PvE and PvP players-everyones never going to be happy with a change. Theres nothing wrong with that imo though, it helps balance the game and mixes it between PvP and PvE.

I also use stories for my PvE characters. Take my warrior for example. I've been part time RPing on him for the past 21 months of his life. I'd be shocked if GW changed so much that it destroyed my RP aspect of my character/s. I guess we will all need to adapt to that and other situations-if it ever happens.

Ashleigh

ChaoticCoyote · Feb 04, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time.

A typical PvP response that ignores my point.

Playing PvE is about role-playing as much as it is about killing monsters.

Wrecking a skill/attribute line in PvE can ruin an existing character because the character can no longer be played as intended.

Savio · Feb 04, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

Playing PvE is about role-playing as much as it is about killing monsters.

Wrecking a skill/attribute line in PvE can ruin an existing character because the character can no longer be played as intended.

Name a nerf that completely killed off a attribute line to the point where you couldn't play that line still. Despite major nerfs, most builds can be (and are) run in PvE in a weaker state. If by "played as intended" you mean "I took down thousands of monsters by myself with my insanely overpowered skills", that fits neither roleplaying nor PvE balance at all.

Ashleigh McMahon · Feb 04, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Rt lord was one in my honest opinion. It ruined the whole aspect of being able to spam spirits at haste. Get interrupted? Your useless. I didn't see Rt lord as overpowered...it gave just enough time to be able to spam spirits. The reason it wasn't overpowered is because even with boon-your energy got demolished after 2-3 spams. Theres better RT skills out there now..but none that will fill that role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Name a nerf that completely killed off a attribute line to the point where you couldn't play that line still. Despite major nerfs, most builds can be (and are) run in PvE in a weaker state. If by "played as intended" you mean "I took down thousands of monsters by myself with my insanely overpowered skills", that fits neither roleplaying nor PvE balance at all.

Myria · Feb 04, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

In PvE, the experience is the goal. With the exception of farming, PvE is not about mini-maxing, it's about playing a character and experiencing a universe.

Very true, unfortunately the powers-that-be couldn't care less.

Quote:

If role-playing is unimportant to GW, then why have PvE at all?

To pay the bills. PvP cannot support itself, if it could there wouldn't be PvE. Someone has to pay the bills and prize money, we're it.

FoxBat · Feb 04, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Name a nerf that completely killed off a attribute line to the point where you couldn't play that line still.

Spiritual Pain.

Suddenly players have to actually think a little when using Domination, again. Scary!

While there are a few instances of this, the OP's argument is usually disingenuous. Most (not all, but def. most) PvE whiners are running the most powerful build they can, abusing skills equally overpowered in PvE and PvP, and then complain when things change. They like to settle into someone else's min-maxed FotM and don't like to try new things out for themselves. Which as mentioned, has nothing to do with "roleplay" or "experience" just "I want mobs to drop like Diablo!"

Grubcat · Feb 04, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blame the Monks
Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

A typical PvP response that ignores my point.

Playing PvE is about role-playing as much as it is about killing monsters.

Wrecking a skill/attribute line in PvE can ruin an existing character because the character can no longer be played as intended.

Having tried only a very little PvP, I would like to know why PvP balance is more important than PvE game experience? I realize that PvP players are competing against humans, opposed to predictable AI mobs, so their battles are going to be more challenging in that sense.

Why can't a skilled player use a "sub-optimal" character as easily in PvP as in PvE? Aren't there always players and teams that figure out builds to utilize the favored skills, and then teams that manage to come up with counters? Have there really been skills imbalance that have shut down PvP play? Yes, I know about IWAY- did people get annoyed with that because it worked and there were no viable counters, or because it was boring to play against?

FYI- this isn't meant to be sarcastic-maybe naive- I just wonder why the animosity from some PvPers towards PvE players not wanting their playing experience to be less than optimal(in our opinions). GW is made for both.

Relambrien · Feb 04, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grubcat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blame the Monks
Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time.

Having tried only a very little PvP, I would like to know why PvP balance is more important than PvE game experience? I realize that PvP players are competing against humans, opposed to predictable AI mobs, so their battles are going to be more challenging in that sense.

Why can't a skilled player use a "sub-optimal" character as easily in PvP as in PvE? Aren't there always players and teams that figure out builds to utilize the favored skills, and then teams that manage to come up with counters? Have there really been skills imbalance that have shut down PvP play? Yes, I know about IWAY- did people get annoyed with that because it worked and there were no viable counters, or because it was boring to play against?

FYI- this isn't meant to be sarcastic-maybe naive- I just wonder why the animosity from some PvPers towards PvE players not wanting their playing experience to be less than optimal(in our opinions). GW is made for both.

The reason a skilled player can't use a sub-optimal character is due to the one of the core foundations of Guild Wars...the limit of 8 skills per character. Due to this, in PvP, a character's/team's build often decides the battle just as much, if not more, than the skill level of the players involved, unless there is a large gap in player skill.

Thus, you are at a huge disadvantage by using a sub-optimal character in PvP, whereas in PvE since your skill level is infinitely greater than that of the monsters' AI (for the most part), your build makes little difference.

unienaule · Feb 04, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.

Vermilion · Feb 04, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

If role-playing is unimportant to GW, then why have PvE at all?

I guess I would have to answer using the scapegoat overused so much already..majority. How many of the PvE community Roleplay in this game? Realistically I don't think anyone knows the exact numbers, but Id be willing to guess its not a high percentage. Because in my opinion, this is a bad choice of game to roleplay, due to the skill updates you have mentioned.

Skill changes are more important in PvP because the gametype as a whole needs balance. No one will complain when a skill is overpowered in PvE, will they? Of course not, it makes everything a lot easier. If they decided PvP wasn't the most affected by skill balance and catered more to PvE, I believe the PvP aspect would be deserted. PvP is dynamic..just think of it as a shark..if it doesn't keep moving, it dies.

Myria · Feb 04, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grubcat

Having tried only a very little PvP, I would like to know why PvP balance is more important than PvE game experience?

Fundamentally, because the game designers say so by their actions, there's really no other reason. From the beginning skill changes have been either PvP-based or anti-Farming nerfs, the effect of either upon normal PvE play has always been an afterthought, if even that. There's no particular reason it has to be that way, it's just the way this particular team of devs has chosen to do things.

Grubcat · Feb 04, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.

Excellent point (and nicely stated).

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 04, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Apples and Oranges...

There is nothing to be gained by comparing PvE and PvP, the whole issue is simply the reality of ANet having to work both sides of the fence and this results in a contentious mix of priorities and players have to adapt.

I agree with the OP's statement that character development in the PvE sense is negatively impacted by the constant flux of skill changes, but character development has never been a strong suit in Guild Wars.

ANet has indicated that the shifting sands of the skill bar is one of their ways to keep it fresh, but one could argue that stability isn't necessarily a negative attribute.

Perhaps "freshness" could come in the form of new content or fundamental design changes.

Zehnchu · Feb 04, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.

Searing Flames, Sandstorm, and all elites and *cough* A Factions skill Lighting Hammer used in DoA, from mobs of 24-28 are used against us.

Ashleigh McMahon · Feb 04, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehnchu

Searing Flames, Sandstorm, and all elites and *cough* A Factions skill Lighting Hammer used in DoA, from mobs of 24-28 are used against us.

Effectively ...Monsters use sandstorm on single foes; exp sandstorm users use it on grouped foes and time it right...Same with all spells in fact...with the exception of interrupts which the monsters seem to use effectively. Monsters tend to fire off spells no-matter who it's against and just try to cast them as soon as they can.

I do understand what you mean; but alot of the time when the monsters are winning is most probably human error...not kiting/moving out of AoE.

Ashleigh

Tiyuri · Feb 04, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Your argument contradicts itself.

You said PVE isn't about optimal builds, it's about playing a role..

Then you complain about skill nerfs, because the build you're playing is no longer optimal.

It's like the nerf to rampage as one, so it's going to take you 10 seconds longer to kill the mobs now, does that stop you "playing the role" of a melee ranger? No.

Nerfing skills 99% of the time just changes the numbers involved, you can still use those same skills. So complaining about nerfing in relation to roleplaying is irrelevant, especially if you state that you could care less about running an optimal build.

The fact is, PVE players use what's overpowered as much as PVP players do, the difference is the PVE players don't have it used back against them, so the more overpowered the skills the better. So they whine when they lose their overpowered skill.

Ashleigh McMahon · Feb 04, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Exactly what I meant by "It's a war between PvE and PvP'ers"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Your argument contradicts itself.

The fact is, PVE players use what's overpowered as much as PVP players do, the difference is the PVE players don't have it used back against them, so the more overpowered the skills the better. So they whine when they lose their overpowered skill.

Njaiguni Blaze · Feb 04, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Come on guys. This is bs. Them so called skill "nerfs" have little to no effect and/or harm in PvE. People complain about a skill being tuned down, but I have seen some really great buffs to the sin, mesmer, rit and several other skills. Some warrior stances have a shorter duration and recharge now, WoH is buffed like hell and the list goes on. I have been playing for over 1600 hours of PvE and have never felt or thought of ANY reason to complain about a "nurf". The skills have always been altered, and I don't think PvE is ruined by a tonedown on SF or anything.

About this pet thing. The OP said that bringing a pet wasn't used for tactical purposes... You brought the pet, just because you had one. Well, that is the thing I hate most about players (no offense). Bringing a pet with just comform and charm is so stupid and useless imo. That are two skill slots wasted. And you know, beast mastery is good. You should try it. And the ritualist is FAR from useless. Ritual Lord isn't the only skill. I mean, Rits solo Arborstone, UW and the FoW. And further, they can be a key character in healing, protection and offense.

My last point is, most of PvE can even be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies. Try it, go pwn the mursaat in ThK without any of your own skills set. Will take some more time, but you'll succeed.